Next to Nunn Podcast | Amy Nunn + Dawn Baumgartner

KEY THEMES

• The difference between doing and being

•  Recognizing when you're out of alignment

•  Breaking free from toxic leadership

•  Building support systems around your vision

•  Embracing curiosity and personal responsibility

•  Leading from a place of faith, not fear

LISTEN HERE:

TRANSCRIPT

Amy (00:11):

Well, hello everyone, and welcome to this episode of Next To None. I have a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful woman with me today. I consider her friend, but she's also just a powerhouse leader. Her name is Dawn Baumgartner. And Dawn, tell us about your business and a little bit about you.

Dawn (00:32):

Thanks, Amy. I'm so excited to be here and really excited for you to be doing this with me. I'm super excited to get to connect about these things. So my name is Dawn Baumgartner and I have a coaching organization called Cornerstone Coaching and Consulting/

It is really an overflow of all the things that I have been able to do over the years, and the Lord just really indicated that there's just been this thread over the years and all the different things that I put my hand to, and this is where it was supposed to culminate.

So I am super blessed to take all the experiences I've had and be able to share and connect with other people and help them with areas that they are stuck or systems and processes that they need or scale to that next level in business and life.

Dawn (01:17):

And beyond that, yes, I would also say we are friends and I am so excited that now we are both running coaching organizations and helping people out of the overflow and the abundance of the things that we've learned over the years.

I have an almost 21-year-old who still lives with me. I know, it's crazy. Remember when she was a baby? It's crazy.So an almost 21-year-old who lives with me just outside of St. Louis, and she is incredible.

It has been a tremendous gift in my life even though we've challenged each other over the years. And we both each have a dog, our babies that we love very much. And I know that my time with her is probably short-lived as they get older and leave us, but I'm just enjoying every minute of that.

And if you are not finding me in the St. Louis area, I'm probably traveling to see friends or I could be planted at a beach if we're being real. I will probably be on a sandy beach walking and listening to podcasts or just sitting and looking at the beautiful ocean.

Amy (02:26):

So Dawn and I go to the same church, and this week our youth are down in Panama City at youth camp. And I was like, where were those types of youth camps when I was a kid? Right. So I'm super excited for them down there this week, and I know he's having a good time. He's already texted us and told us he swam in the ocean and how fun it was. And so yeah, the beach is beautiful and so relaxing.

Dawn (02:52):

Yes, yes, I agree. I think I hear more from God there, even though I know he talks to me all the time. Maybe I'm listening better, which probably the case.

Amy (03:00):

That's a great segue actually, because sometimes when we are in the grind of our businesses and all that different types of stuff, sometimes we can't really focus or hear not only some people that watch are not in church and that kind of thing, and that's totally fine.

But sometimes people are so busy doing the things in their business that they can't really clearly see or hear things in the way that they need to. So tell us a little bit about how you help clients with that particular challenge.

Dawn (03:36):

Particular, yeah, thanks, Amy. So I really help people focus on the difference between doing and being. And as somebody who is wildly productive, a lot of people think of me as focusing on that productivity and how to become more productive in your business and how to be more efficient and all the things.

I am definitely a driver. And so it is incredibly special and just precious to me that people also learn how to be where your butt is, be where you might be needed, be in places that maybe you're choosing to avoid because you need to build muscle strength there to be able to push through to the next level.

And I think all too often we're confused and thinking I'm winning in one space. Maybe I'm killing it in my business, but I'm kind of losing in my life. And we're like, it's okay because it'll balance out.

Dawn (04:30):

And the truth is winning in one and losing in the other is not the definition of winning at all. And so one of the things I love being able to focus on with people is that many people will bring me in for one reason and find that we actually started digging maybe on the other side than what they intended and they choose that.

But again, we have to just find the balance, even though it's a counterbalance, but we need to be able to figure out, hey, what is the most pressing thing? Because the very thing that is bleeding out in life will show up at some point and you get to decide when to tend to it.

So I love being able to connect with somebody and hear about what they want and then also say, "That's great. Tell me a little bit more about what else is going well, but maybe what else is kind of screaming for attention that you may be kind of like, 'Ugh, I don't want to deal with it' and let's just talk about it for a few minutes so we can figure out whether or not it could be an interruption for us, and then when we do intend to deal with it."

Amy (05:31):

I love that. I actually tell business owners and leaders all the time, when your personal life is a mess, your business life is going to be a mess. And it's so, so true.

I've actually had several clients that in the process of coaching, things have come up in their personal life, but they're talking about it as if it's a business problem. And I'm like, well, that's not really a business problem, but it affects your business, right? Yes. And so very true.

Oh gosh. You just said something that made me want to ask you a question. Let me think what that was. Oh, how do you play that? This is what it was. How do you play that out in your own life?

Dawn (06:14):

Playing out, making sure that I'm creating balance? Yeah. So great question. So really it's probably the framework through which I run many, many things, which is through, I look at my life in 12 to 13 week segments. And so I really do use those fiscal quarters of the year.

It helps me in all kinds of ways when my CFO wants to have conversations that I don't want to have, I don't like talking about the money at all. He's like, this is great, and I'm like, I don't care. Can we talk about something else?

Dawn (06:48):

So it helps because then I can kind of see things with a purpose that's meaningful to me. Again, he wants to talk about it from this side and I want to talk about it from this side.

So in my life I look at things that way, and I do that with my clients as well, where I will go, okay, from January to March what is actively happening? And I get really clearly focused on what is a needle that I want to move personally and what is the needle that I want to move professionally.

There's a book by Brian Moran called The 12 Week Year, and the cover of it, whether that's the only part you ever read or not says "How to get more done in 12 weeks than most people do in 12 months." And it is so real. Just get hyper-focused on a smaller amount of time and decide one or two things that you intend to accomplish.

Dawn (07:30):

And so that is what I do as I come into the year. I make my dream list or my brain dump of all the things that I think that I'm going to accomplish in a year and then break it down to what do I really want to tend to this quarter or what do I need to tend to this quarter?

And so in my life, I do the same thing that I coach other people to do, and I do that as well. Now I have a couple more than one in the business and one in the personal. I think that as we get further along, we believe that we can manage more, or maybe it's just by God's grace or because he's actually carrying some of those things.

Dawn (08:04):

But I do really get really very laser focused on that. And if my personal quarter is going to require more of my life, then I have to really look at that and go, Hey, I am making an intentional decision to tend to this or to make this a strategic goal, and I therefore need to make sure that I also do not have such high aspirations on this other side, and I may have to manage tension on some things until I can deal with those in a future quarter because I'm a human being and I cannot take on the world all at one time. And having done that for years, I know what that looks like to our bodies and our minds and our relationships. And I'm thrilled to say that I have worked on that and I'm sure I will continue to. And I'm really excited that I've just kind of found the ability to really navigate that.

Dawn (08:54):
And then I would say the other thing, Amy, and I know this is a native concept to you as well, we need to be coached. We need other people around us to be like, hi, that's such a cute story. You thought that that's what was going to happen, or even to say, tell me more about what that would look like if you did make that happen. And so I have other great people in my life, not too many voices, but I have some other great people in my life that will say, tell me more about that and help make sure that I'm having those iron sharp and iron moments.

Amy (09:25):

Those are so pivotal. I shared this before on the podcast, but when I started my business, I was like, I can't do this alone. And so I was like, okay, so I need some advisors. I need people. I had a coach, but I thought beyond that, I have a coach, but who can I bounce ideas off of? Who can I trust? And so I picked one person who is an older woman who's been in business for a very long time. She is whip smart. I learned so much from her in every single conversation, and we've been connected for over 12 years, and I'm still amazed that I learned so much from her. And the other one is someone that is just killing it in her industry and she just is dynamic. And then the other one is a super creative person that I don't think the way that they think. And so I need someone like that in my life, especially for my business, and they're all friends, but they all will just flat out tell me the truth. I need someone that can just be like, Amy, this is a stupid idea.

Dawn (10:29):

Right? Yeah. You and I both respond really well to those things. That's good.

But even if you don't hearing it that way, I love what you said. You've got somebody who's really creative that thinks differently than you. You've got somebody who's years ahead of you who has done this kind of thing, like this business side of things for a long time. And then people that are running with you, I know I have a Do Life Together newsletter, and I talk about that in one of the first episodes. There are people running with you, there are people that you're reaching behind to be like, Hey, come up here. Let me help you. And then there's people that are ahead of you that are headed where you want to go or who've been where you want to go. And it's so valuable, and I love that you've surrounded yourself with people like that too, and I know that's why you are having the success that you're having and being able to do all the incredible things you're doing.

Amy (11:14):

Yeah. It's so crazy that you talked about just the whole 12 week year and all that kind of stuff because recently I'm going I'm, I'm going to have to cut out some of the networking that I've been doing or the different things because my time is being spent so much in that and not in other things in the business and the new clients that I'm getting and all that type of stuff. So I totally understand what you're saying. I actually tell my clients the same thing. It really sucks when you tell your clients things and then you're like, oh, I need to do that too.

Amy (11:48):

Okay, so tell me the different types of clients that you work with. What do you feel like is these are the types of clients I love to work with?

Dawn (12:01):

Yeah, great question. And it's something again that I've heard you touch on in the podcast as well, but I feel like the people that I am supposed to spend time with and that belong in the world that I am impacting and where I'm spending time are in core value alignment with me.

Dawn (12:19):

And they are the people that are like, Hey, we kind of begin and end here and this is what we're focused on. And so that isn't necessarily industry specific. I might not know much about your career field, but I know our hearts are in alignment and the way that we're choosing to do business is in alignment. Even if you would say, well, that's not the kind of business I'm in, it really doesn't matter. And so I love getting to work with people that I'm in core value alignment with. And not only do I love it, I also just find I generally keep a full enough hopper I guess, of other people who may be in similar core value alignment to me, but also do things a little bit differently. Or maybe they're a little bit more open to who's in their clientele list because I love to refer people.

Dawn (13:08):

If I am not your girl, I do not want to be all up in your world and making you crazy. I want this to be a win-win for us. And so I really love surrounding myself with other coaches and people who are providing different kinds of services that are complimentary to mine that will also care for people well. So I would say people that are in core value alignment with me. I mentioned earlier people that just feel stuck. Oftentimes I'll have, I mean, even people that have had years and years and family history of running organizations or my grandpa was a firefighter and I'm a firefighter and now my dad was a firefighter. I mean, this is what we do. But again, after nine 11 and after the years of that, and then there were many people that have served in those industries or even in education that are coming out and going, I don't want to do this anymore, but it's the only thing I know how to do.

Dawn (13:58):

And you're like, okay, well let's just start back over here. And the truth is, oftentimes what we find is it's not that they don't want to do it anymore, they just don't want to do it the way they've been doing it or they don't like some of the changes, so we've got to just get at it. So helping people get out of their own way and believe that things are possible, it's okay. You're right. Let's help you not do that anymore. But while we're doing that, let's just unpack what that really means. And oftentimes they find themselves just really, no, I do want to do this. I just didn't want to do it the way I thought I had to do it.

Dawn (14:30):

And so setting people free of the way that you've done something served you and you've started that way for a reason, but if it's not now, let's just look at there's more options than just A or B. There's a whole myriad of options.

So I think my history too, from having some time in ministry, not as long as you, but being in ministry for a number of years, I get to serve some churches that oftentimes will maybe get stuck on this idea that, well, we're a ministry, we take care of everybody. We do everything for everyone. And kind of looking at, wow, sounds incredible. Who's not dying during that? How are y'all breathing? So what does it look like for us to have that thought and then kind of harness it a little bit? So I get to work with some incredible churches.

My history again in real estate over the years, my educational background that then allowed me to open a real estate company has given me access to, and really a lot of an audience from people who are in real estate or direct sales or in shoulder industries to that, that are like, Hey, how do I stay in front of my clients? Well, how do I relationally build what I want to build?

Not" Have you ever thought about buying or selling your house?" Yes, dude, I have thought about it and I don't want to talk to you about it. Stop asking me that question. Right. So how do you relationally connect with people and care for people? Well, so I spend a lot of time, I think getting to serve small business owners, mid-size business owners that are in some of those veins, but all the way from that to psychologists and therapists and different people that maybe are serving maybe my same people, but in a different capacity or a different way. So I feel really blessed

Amy (16:20):

Such a myriad. I think it's fascinating because I just believe that the coaching industry is just completely saturated, and I don't believe that everyone is meant to be a coach, but it doesn't mean that people can't try it and do what they do. But what I find often is people ask me, what's your industry? And I was like, well, I don't have an industry because what I do touches every business no matter what kind of business it is, because more on the culture, the leadership side, I don't get into all the other things usually.

You know what I mean? Some of the things you've been talking about. And so it's like I think every person is unique. I don't believe that every person can be coached exactly the same way, and I don't believe that every business is the same way. Models don't change, but how people do things is very different in the different businesses all created very differently. And so I love that you don't have a specific industry because you can help anybody.

Dawn (17:37):

And I love that you said that, just I don't have an industry here. And really, I think at the end of the day, we both feel that I'm here to serve, and if I can help make a difference there, that's what I want to do. And I remind people too, I'm not here forever. I'm going to move in. I'm going to do what you're wanting to do. I'm going to help solve some problems and I'm going to get out of the way. And I think that's the other thing that's happened oftentimes, I mean, again, if we kind of jump on the whole saturation of our coaching of the coaching industry and things like that, again, I think a lot of people are hopping in and maybe jumping back out and potentially discounting the idea or the name of it a little bit. But I think sometimes too, it's just because people have different ideas around it. And so I love being able to just educate and just be like, Hey, this is what I do. This is my purpose with that. You may have been exposed to something different at some point, so I love it.

Amy (18:30):

Yeah, I hate this term. I talked about this on a different podcast, the imposter syndrome. I don't know why. It just really bothers me. That whole term imposter just really bothers me. I think what it is is it's not so much an imposter syndrome, it's just a lack of confidence. And I think somebody starts a coaching practice based on things that they experienced and then they quit because they feel like an imposter. Just own it. But I know it's all different personalities and all those things. Sometimes I just want to be own it. Just have confidence in what you're trying to do and just go for it.

Dawn (19:07):

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, interesting. Like seasons or all and stuff, maybe for a reason, maybe for a whole season or maybe for a lifetime. So we'll see. I've had a lot of seasons in my life, I'm telling you, had some conversations with God like, Hey, I thought I was paying attention. What am I doing over here now? And he's been so gracious to be like, you were supposed to do all that zigzagging stuff and now this is where it's going to come together, which I love, and I loved all my zigzagging too.

Amy (19:36):

Well, yeah, it's fine. I'm not one of those risk averse people, husband. We were talking about that last night. You have people who are risk averse. Then you have people that are like, Hey, let's just go try it and see what happens. I would probably say you're probably one of those people too.

Dawn (19:52):
Yeah. Yeah. I do enjoy doing that. I want to have a plan, Amy. I need to have a plan, but I'm all about beta testing. That's right. Let's just get out there.

Amy (20:03):

I just want to try it. Let's just beta test, see what happens.

Dawn (20:06):

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it's been exciting to watch you do that. I mean, I remember some of our early conversations about you, and again, you've been coaching, caring for people this and carrying people and doing those things for so long. But then I remember when you were like, no, legit all in. This is what's happening. And then you were like, oh, by the way, I published a book and I'm like, no, in the last week, and it wasn't really that quick, but to me I was like, are you kidding me? Okay, what am I supposed to do with it? You are. You build stuff. I had another mentor that said, we're building the plane as we fly it. And I'm like, oh God, that sounds so scary, but here you go.

Amy (20:49):

It can be. For me, in my walk with life, I really take a lot of stock in my faith and my relationship with God. And so I really pray and I really try to discern what it is and what's just my idea, what is it that's Gods and what is my idea? I don't want to really do my idea. I want to do his idea because his ideas always turn out really great. My ideas usually don't turn out so well.

Dawn (21:15):

Yes. Well, and it's evidenced because I just keep watching what you're doing and the impact that you're having. So thank you. Thank you for being obedient. It is not easy, and it stretches us. And I mean, I'm just watching you go.

Amy (21:29):

It's so funny. It's challenging to start a business. I talk to business owners all the time and the struggles from when they start to where they have a ton of teams that are working for them, and it's challenging. And a lot of business owners end up folding in because they don't have the support that they need. And I would challenge everyone that's listening to this, if you don't have the support you need, it is worth the investment. It really truly is worth the investment.

When I first started my business, I invested and I invested in a coach that I was paying really good money and a lot of money to because I needed that support and I needed that person to help me stay aligned to, like you talked about my core values, so that I didn't have vision drift. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew what I felt like God had shared with me to do. And by having that clear path, it's easy to get lost in that and then start drifting from, oh, hey, this person just put out this whole seminar and oh my gosh, they just killed it. They had 500 people at it, and maybe I need to, oh my gosh, maybe we should go that way. No, no. Just do you?

Dawn (22:47):

Yes, yes. I love that. Well, and I think even to your point, I mean even if you're like, okay, well, okay, great. That's nice that you can say it's worth the investment. It is. And if you're not sure, it's worth the conversation.

Dawn (23:01):

Again, I don't know what point of entry looks like for Amy's coaching practice, but again, I know that our hearts are that we want that, right? And I know with mine, I'm like, Hey, there are plenty of opportunities to connect to find out. Let's have a conversation because maybe you're ready and maybe you're not. Right?

I mean, I see a lot of business owners that jump out there because all their friends and family were like, you're so great at this. You should open a business. No, if you're so great at it, you probably shouldn't open a business because you're not going to love the business side. You're going to love what you do. You maybe should consider partnering with someone to do that. And again, so often, and this goes back to again, I know you spend some time in this with the areas of genius and things like that, but I want to be in my zone of genius. I want people in my world to be in their zone of genius.

Dawn (23:52):

My Operations Manager. I want her to do all the things she wants to do. When my content person gets tired of doing content or starts to kind of slack off on things or fall to the side, I go, Hey, what are you doing right now that you don't want to be doing?

Because I want these people in their zone of genius. That's our goal, and that's what I want to do with my coaching practices. I want to help people get into your zone of genius where the things that you're doing feel like the most amazing thing in the world. The difference between genius and excellence is not what people say about you, it's about how you feel when you do it. And when I'm in my zone of excellence, people are like, oh my gosh, you're so great at that. Thanks. It's amazing. And I'm like, oh, that's so cute. It's draining me. 

Dawn (24:35):

But when I'm in my zone of genius, people still have nice things to say, but I am fulfilled and I feel good like that. And I'm like, we deserve that. Everybody deserves that. And I'm not saying you can walk out at 21 in case our kids are listening. Like you don't get to walk out and have that right away. You're going to bleed a little. It's going to be fine, but you can have it right, and you can have it way sooner than us, but it's exciting and it's so good, and I think we can all experience that.

Amy (25:10):

So you're talking about the working genius, right?

Dawn (25:12):

Yeah, I know that's what you use. Yeah. I use just the different zones from the Big Leap. I'm a big book girl. I'll read a book and then be like, Let's get into that zone of incompetence, competence, excellence.

Amy (25:27):

The working genius is a little bit different. It's more based on what drives you energy and joy, what are your competencies and what are your frustrations type of thing. And it's based off of a process of ideation, activation, implementation. So that's why I was curious what exactly you were talking about. So

Dawn (25:45):

Yes. Yeah, I was just merging it all. Aim, just bring me back.

Amy (25:50):

I mean, at the end of the day, I am working with an executive. There's a large church in Florida that I work with, and they went to a conference. They got back all of these assessments, and some of them, I'm a certified practitioner with Everything DiSC with the Wiley Group, and I am a certified facilitator with the Working Genius. I love Patrick Lencioni is my favorite leadership author. I love how he writes. But he brought all these things back and I think assessments and things are wonderful.

If you do something with them, don't just take them to get information, do something with them. And so I took it and I put it into this thing that I created that analyzes all the different ones and brings out themes from each one. And it kind of just combines them all into a summary, so. So a lot of the things that you were just talking about is like, well, here's the reason why you don't love doing this part of your job. You're a C personality - relationship building is challenging for you.

Dawn (26:58):

Right.

Amy (26:59):

You know what I mean? So anyway. Yeah, I love that. I love that kind of stuff. I want to talk about leadership for a minute. I know you are a great leader and I love leadership. And by the way, I love what I get to do. I am so grateful and I'm so thankful for what I get to do. And it comes out when I'm doing training with a room of 25 leaders or working with my clients and walking away from those is so exciting because I see the awareness that they get throughout the process of those things.

And it's just like, yes, yes. I want to add value to every conversation that I have with people and I want to learn from all the people. We were just talking about that before we started recording. You can learn from every conversation if you're listening.

Dawn (27:47):

That's right. You might be learning what you don't ever want to do again or the way you don't want to behave, or you might be learning something really incredible that's going to be that one key that's going to unlock something. I so agree. I love that.

Amy (28:00):

So leadership, tell me your philosophy of leadership.

Dawn (28:04):

Ooh, girl. All right. Yeah, love it. So here is, I guess my philosophy of leadership is that we are all, everybody is a leader. You might not know that people are watching, but they are. And so we are all leaders and choosing to recognize that you are leading someone is really that most valuable first step because in life we need to become aware of something generally before we can accept it, before we can take action or make adjustments.

Dawn (28:40):

And so if I am not willing to be aware that hey, I'm a leader, I think a lot of us walk around, a lot of people, I hear them walk around in there and even our young people, because like young people you are leading, I am paying attention. If we are not aware of the fact that we're a leader, we will not accept it and we will not take that seriously and shift into all of the things that we're called to. And whether that's you feeling like you're called to something from the Lord, which is where my source and what I look to for that, or if you just feel like what my purpose is and what I'm supposed to be doing with that, if you don't get really clear on your position in that and what it looks like, which in my mind is leadership, you're a leader.

Dawn (29:22):

You're leading people. Before we hopped on the call today, one of the things we were talking about I think is that just that idea of, or maybe I even said it, well, we've been on the call, but just that idea that you are leading from lots of different places. I might be leading up because I have leaders ahead of me that I'm like, that's one idea. But it's a little skewed by the fact that you're sitting in a different altitude and you're missing the impact down here. And I encourage anybody that I'm running with and I say that to the leaders at the top of the organization, listen, when I'm encouraging your other mid to new leaders to lead up, don't miss that. Don't give it space. Give them time to share what they're seeing. So you might be leading up or you might be looking around and leading and bringing somebody up behind you that is watching you that you may not even know.

Dawn (30:11):

And so I think really for me, leadership is about recognizing that you're leading somebody and you need to get centered on that and be okay with what it looks like and make sure that you're comfortable with what other people are watching. And so being aware of that, being aware, accepting it, getting into alignment and running in action with that or making adjustments where you need to is really important. And then running with other people around you that don't do alone. So yeah, that's kind of where I live with leadership, aim. It's not the traditional, it is not. I need to know which of Patrick's books are your favorite. I want to make sure I've read it because again, but again, it's not the traditional leadership thing.

Amy (30:54):

Yeah. Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Love, love, love, love that book. I love the Advantage. It really focuses on organizational culture health. But some of the things you just said, Dawn, are, so a couple episodes ago I talked to one of the persons about toxic leadership and how we talked about healing from toxic leadership. I want to ask you about how recognizing toxic leadership, I think a lot of people experience has have experienced toxic leadership. And then at the same time, some of us have been that

Dawn (31:38):
Yeah, right. If we're being honest, we probably sat in both seats, right? And as leaders and people who recognize that I'm learning something at all times, maybe about me, maybe about you, maybe about what I don't want. Yeah, it's good.

Amy (31:52):

So if someone were to come to you and say, I don't know what toxic leadership looks like, or they're talking to you, or you're coaching them and something pops up that is, you're like, oh, that's a red flag for that person to be conscious of. For instance, probably my biggest pet peeve of a leader, and my mentor said this to me years ago, and she consistently tells me this, it's watch what they do, not what they say the saying, aligning with the doing. And so for me, that's just one of the big red flags that I tell people. That's a huge red flag.

Dawn (32:32):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting. It's a difficult place to be because I was actually thinking about this earlier today as I reflecting on other people so much easier to be like, I was thinking that you had said you were going to do this, but here I'm still waiting. And then I was thinking one time that I said I was going to drink a gallon of water and I was still not doing it. And I have all these reasons. So one of the first things that I say to people when they come to me with a question about toxic leadership or they think or they're sharing something that's a frustration with someone else or something that they think they're seeing is what is your current response? The outlet that is allowing you to continue to tolerate it, how is that showing up in your own life? Because the truth is that there are people that are in toxic environments all day every day, and it's negatively impacting them. Don't miss what I'm saying.

Dawn (33:28):

But it is not being lived out in a way that is creating enough of a negative implication in their life right now for it to be the central focus, there might be something bigger. And so that's what I'm usually kind of scanning for is this idea of, I mean, again, there were several different questions in there. If somebody comes and ask me for my definition, but again, if I'm listening to someone or I'm having a conversation, I'm really working hard. And most often what you'll find is that I'm staying curious and really wanting to understand. But my biggest thing with that is tell me what it looks like for you to be in that environment and where that's showing up in your life in other places. And it's not usually something people can answer immediately. They're like, I don't know what you're asking me right now.

Dawn (34:09):

And I'm like, well tell it looks like when you come home from that space. Or tell me a little, it looks like when you go to work like, oh, I'm super annoyed when I'm at work because last night didn't go well. Or, well, what does super annoyed look like? How's that showing up in your peer relationships? How's that showing up on your reports that you're getting from people? Are you behind at work? Are you, because I think if we can identify what problem it is actually creating, it will tell us whether or not it's something that's eminent that we need to deal with right this minute because it is important. I don't know. I don't know if you need to completely elope and get out of there right now and quit your job and risk, how will I pay my bills? So there's so many things I think, and that's usually kind of where I live when people come to me like that, I want to know how it's showing up in your life and not just yours, but I mean, let's just be real.

Dawn (35:00):

Having been that person raising my hand and having been in positions where I've experienced that. Again, I think if you think that you've only been in positions where you've experienced it, you may be failing to look closely enough in the mirror. And it might be just because you're not okay with it yet, and that's okay. But having been in both of those seats, I think recognizing that it might not be impacting you at all, but it could be affecting everyone around you because you're really good at all of the little things that you've put into place to manage it. You might even be really good at coaching, excuse me, coaching people to manage all those little things. And so you've created a little system for it. And again, while that might be serving you, who is it not serving and where else is it impacting?

Amy (35:49):

I love that. I can only speak from my own experience. I was a toxic leader. I was leaving dead body in my wake as I led probably, gosh, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, maybe, I don't know, 15 years ago, most likely, man. I just was like, well, you're going to have to get over it. Pick yourself up and let's go. That's toxic for people. And now as I've come to understand others better and learning more about people and how they operate and why they operate certain ways that they do, and what's behind the wall that you're seeing,

Amy (36:33):

Talk about perspective, my book that I wrote a book about that perspective, how am I seeing that person? And I write about it in my book. That was a game changer for me. I had to ask God to help me see people the way he did because I am flawed. And I was not a good leader doing that. I would just jut about like, oh man, you're an idiot. You didn't do this, this, this, and this. And you're just like, dude, get away from me. That's not healthy. That was years ago, but that's still not healthy. But then experiencing it from myself, from a leader, and I saw how that made me feel. I felt like I was slowly dying in some way, shape, or because I couldn't be who I was, I had to become something else that someone else wanted me to be. And then that started showing more of my toxic traits. But luckily I had a great coach that was able to help me process through that. But I think that there's a lot of people that get into that space in the leadership structures in organizations, and gosh, it's sad to see because your heart goes out to them because you understand. But like you said, helping them not stay there.

Dawn (37:53):

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think too, something you mentioned, and I love it, and it's in your book as well, but this concept of inviting God to help you see somebody, Lord, let me see them as you see them. And I had somebody that was very close to me that was a person who was really supposed to be in my life. You know how we have those people? You're like, no, this is actually somebody we're supposed to keep. You're not really supposed to get rid of everybody. But I had to figure out how to have a different relationship there. And I got to say, just in case somebody's listening and they're like, cool story that you think, yeah, just God, just help me see him that way. No, there's some real things that are happening. And I have to tell you, I literally had to create space, intentional space, more than eight months of space sold out.

Dawn (38:45):

Nobody talking about you not having any conversation space. So I just want you as well. I mean, Amy and I are talking about it, and here we are on the other side and we get it. And sometimes you need space for that. So it's not about, Hey, we can just ask for that and boom, that happens in that setting maybe, but maybe not. And so really again, that's where it comes down to having somebody like Amy mentioned, her coach being there, got to have somebody that can be like, Hey, this might be too much just because you're not dying on the outside just because you seem to be showing up. Okay, it may be taking you out. And it's okay to say, Hey, I'm going to need a little break, or maybe more than that. And so I think it's great. It's such good perspective. Yeah, so good.

Amy (39:32):

It's so funny because I remember in one of those experiences, I had to deprogram myself. Mentor walked alongside of me and said, no, that's not a thought process that you want to have. And I remember going through that and going, but you're right. I don't have to do that anymore. You know what I mean? It was just like what? And I think that sometimes when people leave a job because of ineffective, and by the way, toxic leadership is typically a system issue. It's a lack of communication. It's a lack of expectations, medications, or there's just a person that is in leadership or part of the leadership that is unhealthy. Honestly, they're hurting too. You just don't always see it because their response to that hurt is to be ugly. So I forgot where I was going with that train of thought. Sorry.

Dawn (40:29):

That's okay.

Amy (40:31):
I don't even remember what all I was saying.

Dawn (40:33):
You were saying that toxic, typically if you're looking at a toxic leader situation, it's a systems issue. Yes. Yeah. And it's so good, and I think that gets back to the root cause so often in life, and I think this may resonate with the listeners as well, so often in life we're dealing with the behaviors. We're like, listen, I really need you to clean your room for real. If you want to keep living here, right? I know you're too. It's okay. Legit. I really need you to do this, right? We're dealing with the behavior and we're missing. What is downstream from that? What are the roots that are causing the behavior? What's the belief system behind that? Like you said, you had somebody that could walk alongside you and say, Hey, that's actually not a thought process or a pattern that you should be embracing, and you're like, oh, wow, I just thought that was the thought process.

Dawn (41:23):

And I think this goes back to, like I said earlier, for me it's about creating some curiosity around, I mean, maybe it's A or B, but did you think about C version three? And we need people around us to be like, Hey, did you know there's another option? We also have to be positionally though in a place to receive that a hundred percent. I mean, I've had conversations with people who are like, yeah, I think I don't really think that's possible. And I'm like, well, then you're ready. It's not unless we can continue this conversation in a different way.

Amy (42:01):

It's definitely a mindset. I was just talking to someone earlier this week, and they were just talking this negative talk at themselves, and I said, you just said that you want to lead with confidence, but then in the next turn you say this negative statement about yourself, so what is that? Yeah, where's it coming from?

Amy (42:21):

Yeah, they just sat there for a minute and they're like, well, I just don't have confidence. And I said, great. So I want you to try something instead of making a statement like that, because I used to do this, right? My mindset, I would have these negative thoughts and it would rabbit hole, right? You probably understand this too with your clients. It starts to rabbit hole. But I remember, gosh, years and years ago, I would have this negative thought about something and I'm like, okay, and I use the Think acronym. Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it inspiring? Is it necessary? And is it kind? I had to use that acronym on me.

Amy (43:03):

And the things that I was saying to myself like, Hey, is this true? Oh, nope, it's not. Okay, let's throw it away.

Dawn (43:11):

Exactly. Yeah. So smart. No, I think it's good. And one of the things I like about what you just said is so often when we have these thought patterns or we have this belief system, or we have these behaviors and we start tracing it back to in hockey sticks, did this come from?

Dawn (43:27):

We fail to then go, okay, now I know. And what is an actionable step that I can take from that, right? You just said, if in fact I want to change the behavior of I am literally saying things about myself that aren't true, what I need to do is commit to every day at least five times, this would be again, to a client. I would say, listen, five times a day, I want you to catch a thought that you're having or something that's coming out of your mouth.

Because again, wow, if you're saying it now, you've got it out here everywhere, and you've probably said it in front of someone and you body didn't only say it, it also heard you say it, which is double whammy. Five times a day, I'm going to stop myself and go, what did I just say? And then I'm going to take it through the Think acronym, right?

Dawn (44:09):

That's one way. Or I'm going to line it up with God's truth and be like, what does that say? And then I'm going to intentionally decide, is this a real thing or not? And if it doesn't align, I'm going to write it down and I'm going to put it over here in a bucket or whatever. I'm going to throw it in the trash. I'm going to do something. And so it's about slowing ourselves down enough to go, what is the actionable thing that I can do that will help me stop doing the, I mean, girl, if somebody told me five times a day I had to do that, I'd be like, we need to solve this freaking problem. I don't want to spend five times a day doing this dumb thing.

But again, if I do it for one week and I circle back, I'm like, yeah, this is not a problem anymore, and we'll find out because the next week maybe we don't do that. So I think that's the other piece we missed. Don't forget to anchor it with action that will help you make that adjustment so that you do not get stuck in those patterns. And that's one of the things I love helping people do. It's not just a mind shift. It is a mind shift, but it's not just a mind shift. Making a different decision is not enough. In fact, there's only a 25% probability that you will actually do it if all you do is make a decision. Correct.

Amy (45:14):

I will tell you this. Don and I used to work together in the same organization, and she could probably attest this, man, I could cut you with my words like that. I could have just destroyed you with my words. And it was out of an insecurity that I had. And the way that I overcame that was I took that think acronym, and before I would speak, I would ask myself, is this true? Is this help? Love it. In my head, I would go through them all, and that was my action because I wanted to make sure that I, or if it was true and helpful. The last one is, is it kind? And a lot of times I'd had say, Hey, can you give me one second? I want to make sure I say this the right way. That's how I told people in the moment, I'm not answering you, but I want to say this in the right way. And the last one is it kind. And so I would rephrase my initial thought that I was about to say in a kind way.

Dawn (46:15):

That's right.

Amy (46:16):

Or instead of a statement, a question.

Dawn (46:18):

Yes.

Amy (46:20):

So that was my action. That was my action,

Dawn (46:23):

Exactly. But you had to slow down. That took more time. It would've been fast just to be like, and then be like, you know what? Maybe I need to circle back and say I'm sorry or whatever, but it was too late. And you recognize the root issue here is my mouth is a knife, and you fixed it because you were intentional. I love it.

Amy (46:43):

It affected my leadership. It affected the influence that I had and it affected other people. I literally felt like I was leaving dead bodies in my week, rallying people behind the cause that I was being paid to do. And yeah, I love that. That's just a little nugget for me.

Amy (47:09):

So anyway, okay, Dawn, how do people get in touch with you if they want to just have a conversation with you or maybe they want to work and start working with you? Dawn is amazing guys.

Dawn (47:18):

Thanks Ame.

Dawn (47:20):

Okay, so easiest way is to go to coach cornerstone.com or find us on social. We are on. I am on it people. Okay. Don't judge me. I know. Everybody's like, are you an Insta? I'm like, listen, I think I have an account. I'm working on it. So I'm on Facebook, I'm on LinkedIn, but going to my website will get you the fastest result. It'll get you out there. You can see some events that we have coming up. It's always a great way to get in the same room together and have a conversation. Some of 'em are free, some of 'em have a cost associated with them. You decide where you're at with that. But there is on there a couple different things. You can sign up for my Do Life Together newsletter. That's a great way to get some email coaching in your inbox every other week.

Dawn (48:02):

And maybe Thank you. Thank you. Maybe hear my voice before you want to be in front of it. I did have a coaching client say to me one time, I'm super grateful for you because no one has ever told me that if I don't do the first things that they're not meeting with me again. And I'm like, oh, well good. I'm glad. So again, so maybe you just want to kind of test the waters. That might be a good way to do that. And then another quick and easy way is on my site, you'll find lots of different ways to engage, but there's coaching links out there and workshops, but there is a pick my brain session. So if you're like, I'm going to test this, and maybe you're like, I just need you to help me solve some problems, we can always hop on a quick pick my brain session and we can spend an hour together just solving whatever problem you want.

Dawn (48:44):

And that could be a one hit wonder. But if you are interested in coaching or anything that's a little bit more like for your groups or your teams or yourself, when you click on that link, you will fill out a form and that form will get you into a 45 minute conversation with me on my calendar. And we'll sit and you can essentially pick my brain in that as well. And I'll talk to you about what it would look like to work together or Hey, maybe you're not ready for that, or this would be a better fit because again, I want to make sure you're in the right spot. So yeah, thanks for asking, Amy.

Amy (49:16):

You're welcome. I love that. So what is your parting wisdom for us as we wrap this up? Yeah,

Dawn (49:21):

Parting wisdom. I think my parting wisdom for you today would be that the greatest challenges that I have experienced in my life, I created myself.

Dawn (49:35):

And I did that by being unaware, just not knowing what I didn't know. And it was because I wasn't taking enough time to slow down and be curious and allow other people to be like, Hey, have you ever thought about it like this? Or, Hey, did you know do this? And so I ask a lot of questions now, even if I don't think that I'm going to like the answer, and even if I'm not a hundred percent sure that I completely need all that, that person's going to share with me. If somebody's had an experience with me, I want to know what their thoughts were and I want to learn from that. And so that's probably what I would leave you with today is that you really aren't that far away from being able to get freed up from or get out of the way from some of the things that maybe are going on around you. And I would love to have a conversation with you about that. I'm sure Amy would love to have a conversation with you about that. And thank you for having me.

Amy (50:30):
Oh, you are very welcome guys. If I want to ask for you today is like, and share the reels that we put out on social media and make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcast or on Spotify or on YouTube. We are on YouTube. Remember, it's next to none. Thank you so much. And be the leader that you're meant to be, guys.